| Author | Post |
|---|
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Ma'adi, Cairo, Egypt |
| Posts: | 308 |
| Favorite Fan: | Veritys Aston Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Nov 16th, 2008 04:45 pm |
|
There is a fan in my living room....well now anyway. He didn't see this one because I just bought it, after he left.
I'm not an afficionado of ceiling fans. I generally pass them by but my new place is planned to be modern but with antiques to offset the glass and chrome.
So living in a warm climate I decided on an antique ceiling fan (as well as some interesting desk fans of course). The attached file shows a ceiling fan bought in Alex this weekend.
So, here's the quiz:
1. Who made it?
2. Where was it made?
3. (and this one I do not know the answer) When was it made?
Finally a plea...has anybody any idea what the wooden? blades looked like?
Attached Image (viewed 1444 times):
 Last edited on Mon Dec 8th, 2008 11:39 am by Pete Moulds
|
Paul Pierson
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Dec 13th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 585 |
| Favorite Fan: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 02:41 am |
|
1. marelli
2. italy
3. circa 1905-1915
blades probably looked like these in photoAttached Image (viewed 1368 times):
|
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Ma'adi, Cairo, Egypt |
| Posts: | 308 |
| Favorite Fan: | Veritys Aston Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 03:09 am |
|
Hi Paul.
That is stylistically a very similar fan and a great piece of research information.
I really appreciate the information especially about the dating for which I have zero input. So I guess the dating is pretty spot-on from the design and technical aspects.
However the fan is not a Marelli and is not Italian.
Last edited on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 03:10 am by Pete Moulds
|
Paul Pierson
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Dec 13th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 585 |
| Favorite Fan: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 03:29 am |
|
AEG??
German??
|
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Ma'adi, Cairo, Egypt |
| Posts: | 308 |
| Favorite Fan: | Veritys Aston Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 03:36 am |
|
Nope....but you're getting warmer...it is European.
By the way, I've never worked on a ceiling fan. Are there any basic tips on what not to do?
This one needs work on the carbon brush holders and they look like larger versions of desk fans I have worked on.
Also does anyone have information on a source of the carbon to make new brushes. As I want to run the fan regularly then I must get good softer? carbon brushes made up.
Last edited on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 03:42 am by Pete Moulds
|
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Ma'adi, Cairo, Egypt |
| Posts: | 308 |
| Favorite Fan: | Veritys Aston Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 02:57 pm |
|
The fan is Dutch manufacture by EMI.
I have a number of what are best described as 16" pancake fans which oscillate made by them.
However I have never seen a ceiling fan by them.
EMI is still making industrial fans but has been bought out by Vostermans in the USA.
I have emailed the company asking if they have any old fan catalogues.
see http://www.vostermansusa.com/en/EMI/History?session=14d02c4a299b1647a7e01c404f2096bf
|
Richard Boothroyd
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 8th, 2008 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 300 |
| Favorite Fan: | Verity's Lite Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 06:38 pm |
|
Dear Mr Moulds of el Ma'adi in Cairo,
It has come to my attention that you have accused me (on the AFCA site and in public) of being a liar. Sorry Sir Peter, but that it is a dastardly slur upon my honorable English character for which you must apologise- you have called me a liar publicy and the law is the law. I choose ancient English Law - Such a terminological inexactitude [read Winston Churhill!] cannot go without action.
Subsequent to your accusation, my legal council, Messrs Sue Grabbit and Run Inc [sue grab it and run] have instructed me that I have the right to a duel in order to settle this matter once and for all!! You cur.
I draw your attention to the Law pertaining to Knights of the Garter in Council, under the rule of Edward II of Great Britain and the Colonies of 1329AD, granting me the right to choose duelling weapons and the location and time of the duel.
The venue I choose will be outside the first camel vendor at the Great Pyramid at Giza, the time will be dawn (on a date yet to never be decided) and the weapon of choice will be Veritys Orbit fans (less cages) to the death - or whoever gets fed up first  You can buy the beers.
The EMI ceiling fan is a lovely fan and one day you should tell AFCA how we bought and collected the EMI pancakes and got out alive - in one morning.
Richard Boothroyd ps one of them is mine!!
Hope this gave readers a giggle? - Peter probably does more than many to encourage fan consevation and is to be applauded for his generosity.
|
William Drabble
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Jun 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southampton, United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 446 |
| Favorite Fan: | Anything before 1900 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 07:25 pm |
|
Images of the pancakes please
|
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Ma'adi, Cairo, Egypt |
| Posts: | 308 |
| Favorite Fan: | Veritys Aston Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 18th, 2008 11:34 am |
|
I think I posted this picture once before some time ago. These EMI fans are very strong survivors and I have found quite a number here. In fact Richard Boothroyd and I found seven stumps in one memorable day...which made about 4 complete restored fans.
They come with two blade shapes, one pizza slice and a special hot climate blade like the one pictured, which I christened 'elephant ear'.
Almost all of the EMI fans found in Egypt are the latter and the 16" fan like this one.
They come in a 12" fan (I have only found 1 in 10years) and an 8" size.
Normally the motors are broad flat jobs tending towards pancake like this one but they also did a cylindrical motor with carbon brushes which I suspect could handle AC and DC?
I have some available for sale or swap but the shipping will be expensive I fear.
Attached Image (viewed 1249 times):
|
Mark Goodrich
Guest
| Joined: | Mon Nov 14th, 2005 |
| Location: | Austin |
| Posts: | 1381 |
| Favorite Fan: | . |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 02:21 pm |
|
Pete, not sure if you want carbon brushes, or carbon powder to make brushes???
John McComas has appeared at various functions with carbon brushes, perhaps he can help.
If the carbon is a powder, is it graphite? A small pencil manufacturer, perhaps? I doubt Faber-Castell would bother with a request for a smidgen.
|
Ron Jeter
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 14th, 2005 |
| Location: | Kingsport TN, USA |
| Posts: | 1500 |
| Favorite Fan: | Stephens=another BS Post |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 03:43 pm |
|
| Peter: I have 5 boxes of carbon brushes if you can give me some sizes/dem. of your brush holder might be able to fit it with carbon brushes or get close - I have had to sand paper some brushes to get the proper fit.
|
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Ma'adi, Cairo, Egypt |
| Posts: | 308 |
| Favorite Fan: | Veritys Aston Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 07:10 pm |
|
Ron
That is very kind of you. I need to get the fan to the workshop and dismantle it to do some measuring. I will PM you when I have them.
Warm regards
Peter
|
Evan Atkinson
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | Los Angeles, California USA |
| Posts: | 983 |
| Favorite Fan: | Backus ceiling fans 1890's |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 12:04 am |
|
Hi Peter-
Well that sure is an interesting ceiling fan you have there! I've seen one rather like it in Chuck Abernathy's collection (not in person), but 'tis not the same fan. Like Paul, I might have guessed Marelli, so that's interesting that it's not.
You say EMI is the manufacturer, yet I would be curious to know if the threads of this fan are metric or us-standard. I ask, because at the time this fan was made, there were very few manufacturers of ceiling fans in the world, outside of the USA. Notable exceptions are Marelli and Veritys. BUT, there is a question in my mind as to whether certain fans sold under the Marelli name were actually manufactured by Marelli, or were simply re-badged US imports. I've seen some fans that are almost certainly Diehl or Lundell models that were sold as Marellis.
I might have guessed this fan to be a Dayton, made for the Egyptian market. The examples I've seen in Chuck's collection look similar to this, with different styles of ornamentation, and they were made by R&M and some by Dayton.
Regardless, a super-spankingly great fan. Nice find!!
|
Peter Chester
Guest
| Joined: | Sun Nov 2nd, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 178 |
| Favorite Fan: | hunter baseball fan |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 27th, 2008 07:11 am |
|
What are the four u-shaped flanges lying beside it ?
Is your fan ever going to work?
Lower the top-canopy a bit and let us have a look at the shackle assembly.
Last edited on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 07:13 am by Peter Chester
|
Richard Boothroyd
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 8th, 2008 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 300 |
| Favorite Fan: | Verity's Lite Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 27th, 2008 07:24 am |
|
| They are the blade carriers -silly - but no blades or designs for any as yet - I think given waht Peter does - that the blades should be oil rig shaped?
|
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Ma'adi, Cairo, Egypt |
| Posts: | 308 |
| Favorite Fan: | Veritys Aston Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 8th, 2008 11:36 am |
|
Finally got to the internals of the fan (been busy with work). Happily the internals are in brilliant shape. The rotor looks like it is factory fresh. Even the commutator is not noticeably worn just very dirty and coated in carbon powder and gunge.
Unbelievably both of the carbon brushes are there, one behind the one remaining brush cap screw and the other trapped but undamaged by a partially crushed brush tube. So thank you to those kind AFCA members who offered help to make new brushes but I have been incredibly lucky to have 'discovered' the originals.
In fact the carbon brushes look hardly worn and may have been replaced just before the fan was taken down and abandoned. From the commutator and the brushes it looks like the fan was not heavily used. For Egypt that is close to incredible.
Now I have a question because I have never taken a ceiling fan apart before. There is an obvious upper bearing grease cup filled with quite good looking grease. There is no sign of an internal grease cup for the lower bearing but there is an odd external cup structure immediately above the blade iron holder casting on the shaft. This cup is completely dry and has a singlescrew fitted. Is this a lower grease cup? and should it be filled or partially filled with grease to lubricate the lower bearing (which looks a bit dry by the way)? Is the side screw removable just to add the grease? The problem is that the cup rotates with the shaft and is not easy to understand how the lubrication will work its way upward? Or should they be oil baths I wonder?
To answer the question of origin of manufacture, the screws holding the motor casing castings are metric and there is no indication of any internal markings of the fan being made anywhere else but Holland.
Attached Image (viewed 919 times):
 Last edited on Mon Dec 8th, 2008 11:39 am by Pete Moulds
|
Evan Atkinson
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | Los Angeles, California USA |
| Posts: | 983 |
| Favorite Fan: | Backus ceiling fans 1890's |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 8th, 2008 02:55 pm |
|
Pete-
Very interesting! Thanks for answering the question on the metric vs. standard threads.
Yes, your assumption is correct. That lower "cup" cast as one piece with the four blade hub is indeed an oil cup, not a grease cup! This fan should take oil, both on top and below, and yes, the lower bearing on this early fan would run in an oil bath (because the bearing would be submerged, or partially submerged in the cup of oil beneath. Yes, you fill that cup with heavy weight oil via that removable screw. It would have no way to draw the oil up through the lower bearing, other than the air resistance on the blades which, when running, would push the blades, and hub slightly 'up' and therefore, the shaft, lubricating the bearing. The fan was not designed to run at anywhere close to our modern-day "slow" speed rotation. This fan was designed to move air and to run fast.
I will offer the speculation that the armature (not rotor) of this fan looks to me like it's been re-wound at some point in the recent past. I suppose the manufacturer may have insulated the armature well, given they knew the kind of environment it was going into. But that armature looks so shiny, and the windings so pristine and tightly-knit, I truly wonder if they could really be that old and look so good....!Last edited on Mon Dec 8th, 2008 02:57 pm by Evan Atkinson
|
Richard Boothroyd
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 8th, 2008 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 300 |
| Favorite Fan: | Verity's Lite Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 8th, 2008 03:02 pm |
|
| Pete - if you need thread gauges - I have spare metric and Imperial thread gauges so I will bring some over on my next fan foray in cairo for you
|
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Ma'adi, Cairo, Egypt |
| Posts: | 308 |
| Favorite Fan: | Veritys Aston Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Dec 9th, 2008 05:04 pm |
|
Dear Paul and Evan
I have stripped down the fan for painting and want to make the wooden blades so how long should the blades be? in other words what diameter for the complete spread?
One more question....Evan, you made the comment that the fan was designed to run at high speed. I have a Marelli cast iron ceiling fan switch, I guess from the late teens...can I use this to control the fan? It has a internal rheostat and the internal wiring is insulated by chains of ceramic beads. The real question is that this switch has multiple positions...maybe 6. Would this be OK? because obviously the lower settings will run the fan fairly slowly.
Sorry to be such a newbie with ceiling fans and thanks for any advice.
|
Evan Atkinson
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | Los Angeles, California USA |
| Posts: | 983 |
| Favorite Fan: | Backus ceiling fans 1890's |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Dec 9th, 2008 08:57 pm |
|
No problem Pete! I love talking ceiling fans, so don't apologize!
I would guess on a total blade span of around 56-58". You'll have to figure out what that will mean on the length of the blade, taking into account the length of the blade hub point-to-point, and any incremental inches/centimeters the blade irons will add, then what the total blade span will be, divided by 2. There you have the length of your blades. I would assume the blades would have a narrow heel (the part that attaches to the crescent blade iron) that would taper out into a larger head, very similar to all the ceiling fan blades for these early fans I've seen (think Dayton, R&M, etc).
Here's a couple of examples. This early fan hub/iron/blade combination has the narrow heel.
And you can kind of gather the overall tapered shape of the blades off the photo of this R&M C:
Now, on the Marelli switch, YES you could probably use it. However, you have not shown me the motor tag on this EMI. What are the volts and cycles for the fan, and what is the electrical current standard for Cairo? I would assume, if you found the fan in Cairo, that it was meant for the Egyptian market, yet the voltage standard when the fan was made may have changed over the years, compared to present day. So first, let me know the answer to this and we'll take it from there. But in general, yes, you could use a Marelli switch and rheostat to control the speeds of the fan, assuming you can find a place within the motor to stash it so it won't get in the way.
Personally, I would recommend you run the fan off a wall rheostat, not a switch/rheostat within the fan. It looks as if the space in the motor housing is limited because of it's unique shape. Post more photos of the fan in general, from different angles, if you can!
|
Steve Cunningham
Super Moderator
| Joined: | Mon Nov 14th, 2005 |
| Location: | Houston, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2205 |
| Favorite Fan: | Perret's Patent Bipolar |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Dec 10th, 2008 03:19 am |
|
My guess would be your fan was made by the early European makewrs (Marelli, Siemens, AEG). I doubt there was any oil in the lower cup. If the shaft has no spiral grooves. Those grooves would have pumped the oil back to the top reservoir. If no grooves, my guess is your fan would have had light grease in the lower cup. The shaft would have ridden on a phenolic flat washer. Evan is right. The pitch on the blades, and the power of the motor, would have lifted the weight of the armature, off the washer. As for blades, they would have been made of poplar, ash, or gumwood, inexpensive hardwoods. They would have been tapered heel to toe. Earlier blades would have had tapered edges on the sides. The wing spread would be 54-60 inches. The beauty of DC is you can run it at any speed. If you need help with it, let me know.
Steve
|
Evan Atkinson
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | Los Angeles, California USA |
| Posts: | 983 |
| Favorite Fan: | Backus ceiling fans 1890's |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Dec 26th, 2008 03:09 am |
|
Pete-
How'd it going on that EMI? Got her running yet? I'd love to see more pictures!
Steve, I agree with you that the fan probably ran at a speed that lifted the armature up off the phenolic washer by virtue of wind resistance on the blades, just like our ornate Diehl DC's.
But I'm sticking to what I said about that lower cup: I do not believe it used grease. From my reading, I understand that very few of these early fans actually used grease; most used oil (a heavy grade, akin to 10w50 motor oil), and the lower cup on the EMI is shaped like an oil cup. It also would not have a screw on the top outer edge of the cup Pete, unless that screw was meant to be an easy way to replenish the oil reservoir. R&M's A, B, and C series have a blade spider (hub) that has a removable screw as well. None of these fans had spiral grooves cut in their shafts to draw up the the oil through the lower bearing: by design, the bearing was partially immersed in the oil within the cup, and the resistance of air on the blades would lift the shaft "up" enough to theoretically oil the bearing and the shaft. Emerson's unique spiral-groove oiling system was most certainly better though.
The only early ceiling fan I know that uses grease and not oil as lubrication is the fancy Dayton #15 "Oakleaf" DC fans. But there were probably others too.
|
Fred Berry
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Nov 17th, 2005 |
| Location: | Alexandria, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 924 |
| Favorite Fan: | Shabby Roses & Hello Kitty |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Dec 26th, 2008 02:12 pm |
|
They come in a 12" fan (I have only found 1 in 10years) and an 8" size.
BTW, I purchased a mint EMI 12" B&B fan that looks identical to the 16" version in your photo. It has a weird two round-pronged plug. Has a carrying handle atop the pancake motor case for hauling around to fan meets. Otherwise it is identical to the one in your photo. I think the motor is shaded pole. I LOVE the style of the "S"-wired cage! And this is a heavy fan, well made! I'll pull it out of storage and take a few photos.
Fred
Last edited on Fri Dec 26th, 2008 02:13 pm by Fred Berry
|
Peter Chester
Guest
| Joined: | Sun Nov 2nd, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 178 |
| Favorite Fan: | hunter baseball fan |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Dec 30th, 2008 05:49 am |
|
I dont understand one thing. You say that you are a newbie in ceiling fans and now you are off to manufacture its blades !
Anyway what happened to the original ones?
Last edited on Tue Dec 30th, 2008 05:50 am by Peter Chester
|
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Ma'adi, Cairo, Egypt |
| Posts: | 308 |
| Favorite Fan: | Veritys Aston Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Dec 30th, 2008 10:14 pm |
|
Dear Peter
I have no idea what happened to the original wooden blades. It is maybe 100 years since they were made.
I am having new wooden blades made from a pale hard wood about 6 to8mm thick and the shape is anybody's guess. The blade irons show the shape of the inner ends of the blades. The length of each blade has been kindly indicated by AFCA experts to give a 56 to 58 inch sweep.
For shape the picture of the Marelli fan from the same era (pictured above) is my guide.
The fascinating thing about restoring such early fans is the research to get as close to accuracy in restoration as possible. As this EMI fan might be the last one left, then the task is more interesting still.
I will post pictures of the finished product. However the worrying thing is that I'm becoming bitten by the ceiling fan bug very worrying when I already have about 20 years of restoration work on my desk fan collection and I will probably 'shuffle of this mortal coil' way before I finish the work on the existing collection.
Happy new year to all.
|
Peter Chester
Guest
| Joined: | Sun Nov 2nd, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 178 |
| Favorite Fan: | hunter baseball fan |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jan 3rd, 2009 05:35 am |
|
What about the fan atleast ? have you got it in action?
|
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Ma'adi, Cairo, Egypt |
| Posts: | 308 |
| Favorite Fan: | Veritys Aston Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jan 3rd, 2009 01:19 pm |
|
Not yet Peter. Am in Chicago at present spending a short Christmas break with my family. I will leave for Cairo on Sunday.
Promise to post pictures when the fan is finished.
|
Richard Boothroyd
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 8th, 2008 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 300 |
| Favorite Fan: | Verity's Lite Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jan 3rd, 2009 05:21 pm |
|
Pete, Make sure the collection is noted in your will - do it quickly or there may not be much time left - That was for intimating that I am a liar!!! [see the mesage title] :-)
I tried to get black insulating varnish whilst I was in San Diego over Christmas - but nobody had heard of it - I have the red varnish her in the UK and can overspray that if need must? Anuone know where to buy the black varnish in the UK please?
Richard
|
Richard Boothroyd
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 8th, 2008 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 300 |
| Favorite Fan: | Verity's Lite Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jan 3rd, 2009 05:53 pm |
|
By the way - both Peter and I claim to have co-invented a new word - "typlexia." It is the condition that arises when inexperienced typists try to compose text at speed and manage in the process to include spelling and gramatical errors (sic). You will observe many examples of my own typlexia on the AFCA pages and you may also determine prime examples of the condition from other AFCA members - especially when animated:-)
This affliction is not infectious but appears to be endemic in those members of the population for whom typing skills were not a mandatory component of their primary education - and who don't check their messages before pressing the [send] button. - Richard
|
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Ma'adi, Cairo, Egypt |
| Posts: | 308 |
| Favorite Fan: | Veritys Aston Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jan 10th, 2009 05:20 pm |
|
Hmmmm...lovingly stripped fan to bare cast iron, had same resprayed with beautiful ivory paint. At the same time had new missing parts made in steel and artilon (Cairo name for machinable black bakelite for insulating parts).
Straightened out the bent blade irons, repaired missing parts by brazing, recut screw holes and cut threads.
Painstakingly re-constructed the fan with all parts, including brushes, new springs, one new brush cap (artilon), new internal and external wiring.
Excitedly and expectantly plugged it in and phut!... dead as a dodo.
Current is passing through the field coils and causing small sparks at the brush-commutator interface...but no effort on the part of the fan to rotate.
Does anyone have any suggestions? Plan to take the fan to my motor rewind man next week for him to investigate.
|
Evan Atkinson
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | Los Angeles, California USA |
| Posts: | 983 |
| Favorite Fan: | Backus ceiling fans 1890's |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jan 10th, 2009 06:11 pm |
|
Pete-
Has your armature been inspected for continuity? I don't claim to know how to do this. DC armatures have commutator bars and in order to test, you need to get the right pairing of bars with each other, but again, I don't know how to figure it out. Tried doing this on my DC Diehl and couldn't get it - turned out the armature needed a re-wind.
You are using a bridge rectifier for the DC current yes? I don't know what Cairo's electrical standard is, but that's an important part.
|
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Ma'adi, Cairo, Egypt |
| Posts: | 308 |
| Favorite Fan: | Veritys Aston Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 11th, 2009 10:26 am |
|
Evan, I think I may have done a Homer Simpson here....Dooooohhhhhh.
I have no experience with DC fans before. Having checked the motor tag there is no mention of cycles or AC or DC.
The only information is 200 volts. Local supply here is a nominal 220 volts AC but rarely is.
Radio shack is here, what specifications for a bridge rectifier would I need to buy? It seems highly likely that you are correct and it is a DC fan.
Sorry to be so thick. All of my desk fans with carbon brushes run off AC quite happily and I just assumed (you know the old adage about assume ...makes an ASS out of U and ME).
Happily there was absolutely no smells of frying for the very brief period I had the fan connected.
The switch I talked of earlier is a wall mounted Marelli switch and is quite beautiful inside with white porcelain beads along each wire from the rheostat? to the switch mechanism. Is this likely a DC switch as well? I can post pictures soon.
|
Evan Atkinson
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | Los Angeles, California USA |
| Posts: | 983 |
| Favorite Fan: | Backus ceiling fans 1890's |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 11th, 2009 07:11 pm |
|
Pete-
Yes, this is a DC fan motor. With the exception of Emerson and Hunter, nearly all early ceiling fans were DC. You must use a bridge rectifier to change the AC to DC current. You want to go to Radio Shack and ask them for one that will change 220 AC to 220 DC. Beyond that, I don't know what to ask for and sorry, I don't have a part number for you. But it looks like a small chip like the one below. Two leads go to two pairs of the wires, and the other two go to the fan. Very small and simple part; just make sure you get the right conversion.
Regarding the Marelli switch, I have an idea of what you're talking about with the porcelain beads, but would like to see a photo.
A rheostat is a variable speed resistance switch you would use to alter DC current going to the motor, but a variable speed AC fan control or light dimmer is something that uses AC current and chops the sine wave. Bottom line, you don't need to use a rheostat at the wall for this fan unless the current at the wall going INTO the switch is DC. Instead of using a rheostat, you would use a variable speed AC fan control or light dimmer rated for your Cairo 220V AC. The wires coming out of the wall switch going to the motor would be AC but these wires lead into the rectifier, housed somewhere in the fan in a small nook. From the rectifier, you will have the correct DC current to run the motor. This should cause the motor to work correctly!
Post pictures! I would like to see the switch and would love to see how the fan is shaping up.Attached Image (viewed 540 times):
 Last edited on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 07:50 pm by Evan Atkinson
|
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Ma'adi, Cairo, Egypt |
| Posts: | 308 |
| Favorite Fan: | Veritys Aston Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 18th, 2009 03:14 pm |
|
Dear Evan (and anyone else who is electro-saavy)
As usual, there's good news and there's bad news.
First the good news, I found a bridge rectifier in Cairo (No Radio Shack doesn't have).
The bad news is that I didn't have a clue what amperage was needed.
The good news is that they were not expensive so I bought two.
The bad news is that they recommended a heat sink with them.
The good news is that I bought two beefy ones (10 amps and 20 amps) to be sure that I would have enough capacity.
The bad news is that I am an electro-idiot.
The good news is that I connected the 20 amp one as indicated.
The even better news is that the fan immediately started to rotate....much happiness ensued for two micro-seconds.
The bad news is that the cheap chinese made extension cord I was using literally exploded. This indicates to an electro-idiot that I may have drawn too much current.
The good news is that firstly I didn't darken fourteen blocks in Ma'adi and also I do take advice if it is offered. The supply shop has bridge rectifiers in many amperages from 1, 2, 5, 8, 10 etc. So please can anyone advise me what I should be using?? And does it really need a heat sink?
Thank you very much in appreciation should anyone be able to help me.
Last edited on Sun Jan 18th, 2009 03:17 pm by Pete Moulds
|
Nicholas Denney
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Morgantown, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 2924 |
| Favorite Fan: | Emerson Trojan 53668 (imaginary) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 18th, 2009 08:48 pm |
|
Pete Moulds wrote: The bad news is that the cheap chinese made extension cord I was using literally exploded. This indicates to an electro-idiot that I may have drawn too much current.
I really can't believe that...  Unless there was some kind of major short in the cord, there's no way that it could have exploded, much less become hot to the touch. It would require thousands of amps to make such a cord explode! 
For the recifier - I don't think you're going to need a heatsink if you're going to stick with the 10 or 20 amp one, since the fan's amp draw shouldn't be anywhere near there.
|
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Ma'adi, Cairo, Egypt |
| Posts: | 308 |
| Favorite Fan: | Veritys Aston Orbital |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 18th, 2009 10:16 pm |
|
Dear Nicholas
I promise to send you pictures of the cord as soon as I get a camera to my work shop.
The copper cable burst out of the covering in at least two places with a loud sharp noise and accompanied by a flash and much smoke.
I don't know how otherwise to describe it. Yes,a little melodramatic but enough noise and smoke to definitely get my attention and concern that I had plunged an area of Ma'adi into darkness.
|
Nicholas Denney
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Morgantown, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 2924 |
| Favorite Fan: | Emerson Trojan 53668 (imaginary) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 18th, 2009 10:47 pm |
|
Pete Moulds wrote: Dear Nicholas
I promise to send you pictures of the cord as soon as I get a camera to my work shop.
The copper cable burst out of the covering in at least two places with a loud sharp noise and accompanied by a flash and much smoke.
I don't know how otherwise to describe it. Yes,a little melodramatic but enough noise and smoke to definitely get my attention and concern that I had plunged an area of Ma'adi into darkness.
Incredible! I have had situations where I was putting more than 20 amps @ 120 volts into a 28 ga. wire. No explosions or smoke, just a bit warm to the touch. For those of you who know your wire sizes, 28 is pretty dang small.
I can't think of anything that you could have done (connection wise) to develop the amps to do such a thing! 
|
Evan Atkinson
AFCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Apr 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | Los Angeles, California USA |
| Posts: | 983 |
| Favorite Fan: | Backus ceiling fans 1890's |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jan 18th, 2009 11:35 pm |
|
Pete-
Hmmm! An exploding extension cord is a new one on me.
Perhaps the cord was cheap and poorly made. Was it old? Any of those factors could have made it destruct. I wouldn't use something very cheap or flimsy to connect up to this old motor. It is a fact they draw more current than today's motors, so hook it up to something electrically sound.
Pete, Nick is right. You need no heat sink, just the bridge rectifier. Let us know how it all turns out. Still want to see pictures of your progress!
|
Ron Powell
Guest
| Joined: | Thu Mar 6th, 2008 |
| Location: | Lindale, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1493 |
| Favorite Fan: | EMERSON LUNGERS |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 19th, 2009 12:00 am |
|
Sounds like there may have been a unseen staple or the like in the cord.
|
Steve Cunningham
Super Moderator
| Joined: | Mon Nov 14th, 2005 |
| Location: | Houston, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2205 |
| Favorite Fan: | Perret's Patent Bipolar |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 19th, 2009 01:14 am |
|
| That fan should run on no more than two amps. No heat sink is needed either.
|
Current time is 08:52 pm | Page: 1 2   |
|